"There is a basic dishonesty in the system"

DR RAJA Ramanna, renowned nuclear physicist who also specialises in European music and philosophy, a Member of Parliament, a Ph. D. from London in fission physics, has been closely associated with shaping of the scientific vision of this country, particularly in the field of atomic research.

At 73, Dr Ramanna is energetic and restless. His fingers keep drumming as if playing the key board on the piano that he plays to himself or to small gatherings. Those who have had the privilege of listening to his piano have had a divine experience. Chairing a number of councils related to advanced scientific research, he has recently, agreed to head the experts group on Intellectual Property Rights (IPR), Ministry of Industry, at the behest of Sikander Bakht. A member of the Atomic Energy Commission and a fellow of the Indian National Science Academy and the Indian Academy of Sciences, he is candid and approachable.

Recipient of many awards, including the Padma Vibhushan (1975), he has contributed immensely towards the growth of nuclear physics in India. Having produced numerous research papers in the field of science, the latest, being ‘Modes of Decay in Elementary, Physics for Current Science, he has also authored The Structure of Music in Raga in Western Systems, which provides Karnatic ragas and raginis in western notation system. His autobiography Years of Pilgrimage published by Penguin Books in 1991 makes interesting reading.

Brought up in the city of Mysore where legendary connoisseur King Vadiyar provided an atmosphere of great cultural as well as intellectual growth, Dr Ramanna took to learning music at the age of six. A chance meeting with Dr C.V. Raman turned his interest towards physics, which resulted in specialisation in nuclear physics and reactor physics and design.

Beginning his scientific career at the Tata Institute of Fundamental Research, he remained Director, Bhabha Atomic Research Centre, Bombay (1972-78, 81-83), and Scientific Adviser to the Ministry of Defence Research, between 1978-81. He chaired the Atomic Energy Commission and also remained Secretary, Department of Atomic Energy.

Having witnessed a long innings of world history, Dr Ramanna is optimistic about India’s growth in science and technology combined with economic growth. In an exclusive interview with Vandana Shukla he analyses the commonly perceived notions of dichotomy of scientific growth that does not correspond with the sociological growth in our country. Excerpts:

How do you synthesise such diverse subjects like nuclear physics and classical music?

I do not try to synthesise. Music begins with postulates of beauty and mathematics begins with postulates of numbers. Mathematics is like music. It appeals to the human mind. It is not uncommon to find many scientists and philosophers who are also musicians.

How did you grow interest in both?

I was at Good Shepherd Convent in Mysore. You know King Vediyar himself was a great musician and he provided an atmosphere of learning. At the convent the teachers were very good. Mother Mosses, who taught us music, spotted talent in me and encouraged me to pursue western classical. In 1940 we had an examiner for music from Trinity College of Music, but the war broke out and he was forced to stay back. We benefited by his long presence. I was still in school when Prof. C.V. Raman was active in propagating physics as the most important branch of knowledge. Since I was already a student of mathematics, physics appealed to my mind. Then in 1945 I met Dr Homi Bhabha. Thereafter I went to London to do my Ph.D. On my return I joined the Tata Institute of Fundamental Research and without my knowledge I was transferred to atomic energy. It happens this way. I remained associated with the Atomic Energy Commission. As Scientific Adviser to the Defence Ministry, I worked with people like Babu Jagjivan Ram and Vankatraman.

You have been at the helm of affairs. How do you explain the wide gap between the achievement of nuclear science and our technological infancy?

This is because at the elementary level of technology you don’t get the best people. You get people on reservation. If you want to get the work done you need efficiency, not reservation. I also blame the people who train them. Look at the men who maintain telephone lines, power lines, roads. They lack basic understanding of the things they work with. They fiddle with wires and somehow manage the work. You pay a few bucks and get your wires connected to where you like. Look at our roads. Each rain washes them away. They cheat on money. There is a basic dishonesty about the system. We are stuck in a system we are unable to change.

Not only the students, even professors are not chosen on pure merit. It happens in universities as well. So, the best people migrate to research labs. This is the reason why so many of our top scientists migrate to other countries.

But I believe when people, the masses, get richer, they want better things. They demand better services, better training. I am hopeful when better training is provided better technocrats would come. Except by getting richer, we can’t change. I am beginning to see things changing. Power stations are given more money now. They are generating almost 85 per cent of their capacity, which is far better than before, but the number of power stations is still small, much less than required.

Still, power continues to be a major problem. Industries suffer huge losses. You have been associated with the Atomic Energy Commission. Where have we gone wrong?

Our problems are sociological. Producing power is one thing, collecting money is another. We have to make things financially viable, and this is not a scientist’s job. Massive electricity bills go unpaid by state governments and other government representatives and organisations. In Punjab you have free power supply. How do you expect in this situation to ever produce enough power? You provide free power to poor farmers, who will buy the cheapest pumps available that will produce more heat than power — consuming a lot more power, than required. There is no one to guide him. The manufacturer has his vested interest. Perhaps he is equally ignorant. The system encourages a

lot of wastage.

Are we following a plan? A philosophy of scientific growth?

I am a believer of scientific advisory committees. Under C.N. Rao a committee was formed to advise the government. These committees have been there sometimes. At times they are not formed. Narasimha Rao did not believe in it. This is why there has been lack of growth in certain areas. A few areas have suffered. Now the tendency is to leave it to the heads of different agencies. I find Yashwant Sinha very open to ideas. I have great faith in him.

We are said to be about 50 years behind in the field of electronics. Why so?

Electronics is a disaster. Dr Bhabha had started electronic commission but since his death in 1966 we did not do anything substantial.

We are clever at software but hardware needs investments. Secondly, electronics change very fast. You can benefit if industrial houses are willing to risk heavy investments.

Does scientific growth shape political preferences or is it politics that shapes scientific growth in our country?

Politics comes first in a democracy. Give and take come afterwards. Still, it is better to have a democratic system. We need better inputs to improve the system. What kind of understanding of the system does one expect from Laloo Prasad, or, let’s take a positive example, Chandra Babu Naidu in Andhra Pradesh? The kind of modernisation drive that he launched has changed Hyderabad beyond recognition. One would have expected this kind of growth and change in Bangalore. But it did not happen. Bangalore has horrible roads, the power situation is bad. This proves political will plays a very important role. In a democracy ultimately it is politics that makes all the difference.

It is alleged that nuclear science receives heavy funds, thereby stashing away resources needed for the growth of basic technology.

These statements have a certain amount of jealousy factor. Within a given system they can also produce efficiency. In space research they have proven efficiency. In defence they are doing well. The CSIR has problems due to lack of industrial support, but they are making efforts in this direction.

Basic technology suffers because training is not good. The whole system functions on reservation policy. I have nothing against reservation. The backward classes should be helped but they should think of other means to help them. It should not be at the cost of efficiency. The quality of training has to be better.

Abroad, India is respected for its scientific growth. We have a tendency to criticise ourselves. Outside people appreciate our scientific achievements. We have made great achievements in science.

How come there are so many south Indians as top scientists?

I think it has got something to do with Brahminical teaching where you begin with learning Sanskrit, a language system that is logical and perfect, linguistically. This automatically leads to understanding of maths. Maths is then easily followed by physics. It is a matter of background and tradition.

How do you view the recent nuclear explosions?

It was a shock treatment. We do not want five countries to monopolise nuclear power. We do not want it spreading. We do not want any more testing. It was sufficient what we did. Now we want to concentrate on power production, using nuclear power.

Is it true we used computer simulation? Does Pakistan also use it?

Yes we have computer simulation. It is quite simple. I do not know about Pakistan.

How do you perceive the growth of science in future?

Growth there will be. But I think you will find the answer best in a topic given by Nehru, lecture series titled ‘Is There a last Chapter of Science? It is interesting. I want people to give it a thought. Science is only 250-year-old since Newton’s time, and it has already gone through its peak time. My approach is perhaps cynical, perhaps futuristic. It all depends on the time. Each aspect of growth has a certain amount of period allotted to it.

Once Sanskrit was the best language. Nobody would have predicted its death. But it happened. I was born in 1925 and I have witnessed a lot of history, a lot of changes. I have seen the World War, the freedom movement, the Independence and post-Independence. Things change. I am optimistic.

Does nuclear war worry you?

Terrorism worries me more. It can be more nasty than a war. As a result of social unrest, sociological trends are indicating more towards this direction.

What gives you more satisfaction — pursuit of science or music?

My profession is physics, music is my yoga.