BJP has no plans to topple Punjab CM Bhagwant Mann, it will fall due to its misdeeds: BJP state chief Sunil Jakhar

Tribune News Service

Chandigarh, June 25

Punjab BJP president Sunil Jakhar says that the Central Government has no designs on the AAP-led government in Punjab. Speaking to Jupinderjeet Singh and Rajmeet Singh on the Decode Punjab show, Jakhar talked spoke on a wide range of topics, including the importance of the Akali Dal for the state and the issues pertaining to farmers.

Excerpts from the interview:

Your former party colleague Charanjit Singh Channi said on this show that the BJP can topple the Bhagwant Mann Government anytime.

This question has been answered by me several times ever since Amit Shah came to Ludhiana and he said that Bhagwant Mann's government will not last long after June 4, the day the results are declared. And I have made it clear that Amit Shah only showed the mirror to Aam Aadmi Party and to Bhagwant Mann. And I still hold this, whatever I have said so far, that they are going to topple because of their own misdeeds.

So, they are going to topple?

No, they are going to fall by themselves… Bhagwant Mann's government is going to topple itself because of its misdeeds, because of the failed promises that they have not been dishing out and because of the unrest amongst its own MLAs. I think they are fed up. You should have seen yourself, I think one of the major newspapers and social media carried this picture where Bhagwant Mann, as a Chief Minister, he has herded his MLAs in a kind of enclosure. You know this fencing and this barbed wire was made to keep the cattle away in America, and now they are trying to keep the people out. His own MLAs he is herding into a kind of enclosure.

That itself shows the kind of unrest and the kind of total lack of trust between the Chief Minister's government and its own MLAs. So, they are going to fall under their own misdeeds. I think Channi is trying to put the blame on BJP or whatever, but I can foresee that the results of Jalandhar byelection will be the death knell of Bhagwant Mann’s tenure as Chief Minister.

His political career will be at stake once the results are out and I have said so in Jalandhar itself that the day Kejriwal comes out of Tihar… If he comes out of the jail, I think then Bhagwant Mann’s days are numbered. If he stays in Tihar, which seems more likely because there is foolproof case against him, I think in that case still he will have to prove his mettle in the Jalandhar byelection.

So, the BJP is in touch with the MLAs?

No, not BJP. I am saying BJP has nothing to do. You mentioned about Channi, then another leader, Pratap Bajwa, was saying that 45 MLAs… he is talking about. I think it is kind of a slip of tongue. What is 45 MLAs plus 15 MLAs of Congress? Bajwa must be getting his achkan ironed because he is always a chief minister and he is waiting for the last 20 years. I have known he is always ready to be anointed as a chief minister of Punjab.

No, they don't have to worry anything from BJP. Aam Aadmi Party, you can tell Bhagwant Mann ji that yeah, he can rest assured that nothing is happening from BJP’s side. But he has to take care of his own MLAs and more than that he has to take care of Punjab.

Which he has totally, he has dereliction of duty. He has abandoned his responsibility as chief minister. He has failed as chief minister.

He still thinks he is trying to keep people happy, in good humour by his jokes and through his chhallas that he is singing. But people of Punjab want governance, which is nowhere to be seen in Punjab.

The opposition, especially the Congress, is always alleging that the BJP has indulged in polarisation and reverse polarisation and in the end, tried to divide the Dalits also. What is your take on that?

I first want to ask my former colleagues from Congress, what do they mean by polarisation? Why do they keep blaming that Hindus are polarising? I have brought some brief figures with me to kind of deny this by figures, because figures speak for themselves. They are talking about Hindu polarisation, that the BJP is trying to polarise Hindus in the name of religion. I will start with my own constituents, Rajpura city. Congress got 32,000 votes. BJP got 33,000 votes. Is that polarisation? Amritsar East, Congress got 28,000 votes. BJP got 29,000 votes. Approximately some odd number here and there. Jalandhar Central 34,000 and BJP got 38,000. Jalandhar North 41,000 and BJP got 47,000. Ludhiana East 41,000 and BJP got 50,000. Ludhiana South 32,000 and BJP got 37,000. Ludhiana West 30,000 and BJP got 45,000. Where is polarisation?

So, that means it has not succeeded.

No, there is no polarisation. Sir, the polarisation what they call… There was no attempt to polarise. There is no attempt to polarise. If there is any form of people coming together, it depends who is looking at from where you are sitting. What has happened, I think Punjab should be more concerned. Every Punjabi, right-minded Punjabi, whether he wears a turban, whichever caste he belongs to, whichever religion he belongs to, I think they should be more concerned about the polarisation which is taking place for radicalism. This should be the concern, not the Hindus.

Hindus have been alienated by the Congress itself. This word polarisation or religion came into the being when Channi (ex-CM Charanjit Singh Channi) was appointed as chief minister. Before that, ever since Giani Gurmukh Singh Muzaffar was made the chief minister till Captain Amarinder Singh, all of them were Sikhs.

All of them were appointed chief ministers. But nowhere this question came about chief ministers, or the chief minister-designate’s religion. This factor of religion came into being, was introduced into this whole equation by the Congress party.

For their vested interest, for their own inferiority complex or whatever they had, grudges against a particular section of society, but it was manifested by them. And to answer this question, I think this is the right forum through which I want to ask my former colleagues in Congress: Is religion going to the basis on which decision will be taken on who is going to be the Congress chief minister? As simple as that.

If it is not, then why have they not yet kind of disassociated themselves, the Congress high command at least or the Punjab leaders from there, from the statement made by one of the leaders in Delhi that only a turbaned person can be the chief minister of Punjab. Why have they not disassociated themselves? They have disassociated with every other statement which came, whether it was Sukhpal Khaira talking about people from Bihar or something. And they were very prompt to say, no, no, no, this is own views, not our views.

When Mani Shankar Aiyar said something, then “no, no, this is own views”. And then another fellow who was talking about the colour of your looks, whether they are from Africa or whether from South Indians, what not. They were disassociating themselves immediately that no, no, this has nothing to do with the Congress party.

So, who has introduced this thing?

This is their own, they have… I think, this is something inbuilt. I think either they have taken a particular section of community for granted, that where would the Hindus go, they will eventually come to us. It is bound to happen. I am not trying to be an oracle or trying to foresee future, but I can read what is happening.

No, polarisation, no, no… What is going to happen is people will come together for their own sense of security. Numbers give them the security because the kind of lawlessness which prevails in Punjab, the kind of glorification of violence which is taking place in Punjab.

Your own newspaper today has said that, India has said that Canada should not glorify terror. I think glorifying terror is almost as bad as what is happening in Punjab, glorification of violence.

The Kanishka bombing…

Not only Kanishka bombing is happening in Canada. Some talk about a security officer slapping a member of parliament. And you (political parties) are glorifying that.

And then you are trying to say that this is happening, the reaction is happening in Himachal Pradesh or somewhere else. Violence begets violence, sir. The kind of thefts, ransoms, kind of lootings which are going on, the way drug mafia is operating, where the liquor mafia is operating from jail, there is sense of total insecurity in Punjab.

And on top of that, when a particular community is alienated then there is a kind of a… What Congress has done is, virtually, they have not said it in as many words, but they have brought in this principle of first among equals. That is another way of saying that you are second class citizen. That merit is not going to be the criteria, your religion is going to decide who you are going to be.

This sense of alienation and the sense of insecurity will bring people together because the government has failed. This is the duty of the government to make every citizen feel secure. Is anybody feeling secure in Punjab today? I have always maintained the gangsters sitting in jail are the most secure people in Punjab.

Today they are operating at will. They are holding press conferences like we are holding an interview; they are holding an interview and nobody has done anything about it. So, this is what is concerning me and I am more worried about this polarisation which has happened right here, sir, right under our nose.

What has happened in Faridkot? You are a journalist. You are an investigative journalist. You have the pulse of the people and you would know. I don't think Hansraj Hans ji lost because of the farm agitation. He lost because of the polarisation of radicalism. But who allowed it, sir? Who allowed it? Because there is a failure of government, failure of leadership.

The government should have provided this kind of a leadership.

But to some, it is as if the Central agencies were behind it. One of the parties is alleging that it is an outcome of that…

How come Central agencies can dictate terms and they couldn't, Central agencies couldn't make their own party win here? If the Central agencies hold the mandate that they can dictate the mandate is going to the favour of somebody in Faridkot or somebody in Khadoor Sahib, then why couldn't they make other people also win? No, sir. This is, even Sukhbir ji has gone back on charges. He said this Amritpal is propped up by the agencies. And now he is trying to defend him. I think they (the Akalis) have lost moorings. This is what Punjab is worried about and this is what we should be discussing here, sir.

You call your program decoding Punjab. I think instead of decoding Punjab, it should be understanding Punjab first. These people who are talking about polarisation, you are talking about this. This is not in the ethos of Punjabi itself. Punjab has never talked about that, Punjab has talked about Punjabiyat, Punjabi and Punjab. Never ever spoken about Hindu-Sikhs. Who brought this is? This Congress petty leadership and propped up by some female sitting there in Delhi. This is against the very ethos of Punjab and this has to be fought with.

Everybody has to come together and they have to shed this. No, there is nobody, they all are equal in Punjab, sir. I have never felt a second class citizen.

They might, whatever they might, and nobody feels like second class citizen in Punjab. If these Congress leaders, I think, I doubt their being Punjabis itself. They may put up a pagdi, but a pagdi doesn't make you a Sikh.

I have never believed it. I have told late Parkash Singh Badal many times in the Assembly also that I am better Sikh than most of your baptised Sikhs sitting here, please.

Maybe I don't have the Sikhi swaroop. Maybe I don't wear the attire of being a Sikh, but I have imbibed the teachings of Guru Sahib. And I think this is what these people lack.

This is what Punjab needs. Punjab needs to worry about the drug issue. Let's talk about the issues of Punjab.

Well, to decode Punjab, you have to understand it first. So, that's why we invite experienced politicians like you and experts.

I am not a politician, sir. Don't blame me being a politician. I have maybe failed because I have never been a politician. I am in politics, but I am not a politician.

Sir, you say BJP is not doing polarisation and there is radicalism going on. But I would like to take you back to your statement when you said that you could not become the chief minister because you were a Hindu. So, that also amounts to…

No, I have never said it. I didn't say it. The Congress people said that he cannot be. I should have brought in that clip also where this one said… because I didn't want to drag her name into this thing because she is not worth it.

You have her statement here. She said only a turbaned Sikh can be chief minister of Punjab. I didn't.

I said they should have told me that Sunil cannot be made chief minister because he is not even MLA. It would have sufficed. They could have charged me with whatever else. They could have said he is corrupt, he is this or that and that would have been okay. But they said he cannot be made because he is not Sikh. Who said it, sir? No, you can't blame me for this, sir.

That became the flashpoint of your leaving the Congress.

No, no, no. I was very much in the Congress. First of all, whether Sunil became chief minister or whether he didn't become chief minister, it's immaterial. Punjab is not bothered about Sunil. What is at stake is a matter of principle. Whether everybody in Punjab has equal rights or not. Can you discriminate against a particular section? What is majoritarianism, sir? There is a difference between rule of majority and majoritarianism, sir. Majoritarianism is when you exclude somebody because of minority.

How can this farce be created, sir? 42 MLAs voted for Sunil Jakhar and I think out of 42 at least 35 were Sikhs, sir. At least 35. You still keep the grudge? I don't keep the grudge, sir.

What triggered my leaving the party was when they issued me a notice. Because till all these months from September till May, when they issued me a notice, I have been saying that Congress should disassociate itself from this statement from Ambika Soni. And her acolytes say, these 4-5 leaders who are now at the head of Congress. I don't want to rake up this subject because Sunil is not important. Important is the issue.

The issue is I left because they issued me a notice. After 50 years (in Congress), if they cannot pick up the phone and talk to me if they had anything against me, then I think that is a very big insult and I am self-respecting myself. That's why I said I am not a politician.

Sir, now the critics are saying that you are in BJP now, a senior BJP president. But you have not been elevated and Ravneet Singh Bittu has been made a Minister of State. After losing. So, in that way they say Hindus are being ignored from Punjab or in the Cabinet.

I think I am not able to explain. I said chief ministers were made since 1966 when Punjab, what it is today, came into being. Never before this issue came up that why not a Hindu chief minister.

It only came up because they brought in this issue that a Hindu cannot be or only a Sikh can be chief minister. Here there is no issue. BJP has never said that only a Sikh can be chief minister.

It is denial. It is excluding a whole community from this democratic process. You cannot do that.

I am worried about this matter of principle. Sunil is long gone but there is a whole list of people who may be feeling alienated.

What about Ashu? What about Brahm Mohindra ? What about Rana KP? They have already been, now I think they have gone a step ahead. Na rahega baans, na bajegi baansuri. They have I think undermined their very position by denying them tickets. A particular section has been denied.

So, it is Congress party's thought process, sir. For here everybody is equal. If you have merit, if you have chances, yes of course.

Bittu got it because he is a three-time Member of Parliament. How can you deny that?

But he lost. He lost elections.

I never contested it (Lok Sabha elections). So I am not an MP. I am still the same because that time I could have been denied for this very reason that Sunil is not an MLA.

This is not about who becomes the chief minister. Idea is, you cannot form a principle that your religion will decide your being whatever you are. That is the fundamental. This is a political or even moral propriety of the thing that they don't understand these basic fine niceties of Punjabiyat.

Sir, do you feel, you know. OK, I will try to put it in nice way. Do you feel that you were in the wrong party at the wrong time? You were leader of opposition when Akalis were in power. When Congress came, you could not, you know, you were not there. And then, you know, again in the opposition.

And now also, you could not, you did not contest or something. Or if you had contested, maybe you could have got the Ferozepur seat because BJP came really close there.

Let's not get into what could have been and what might have been. What I can say is that wherever I have been, I am quite satisfied… Whether I was just an MLA, whether I was part of the MLAs in the Congress regime from 2002 to 2007, whether I was an in MLA in opposition, whether I was leader of opposition, I have been able to put forth my people's view. As leader of opposition, I have taken care of interests of Punjab. I have never shied from my responsibility. I have taken it up. Even at the cost of risk of losing my job as leader of opposition when I walked to Planning Commission along with Badal Saab, seeking help for Punjab. I am quite happy.

I think maybe I am cut out for role in opposition only. Maybe I am not made for government. So, that's it.

And this government which is doing nothing to ensure safety of people of Punjab, you expect them to save Punjab's future!

And they are at loggerheads with themselves. Sometimes they are blaming the bureaucracy. Sometimes they are blaming the police force.

This kind of a contradiction shows there is total lack of governance. Total lack of governance. And when we are threatened with situations like we are a border state and the Congress itself is doing what ISI was doing, trying to create division in society by this alienating a whole community, calling them Hindus and giving them a second-class citizenry tag.

This is a situation fertile for ISI (Pakistan’s Inter Services Intelligence) to step in here. We need a strong leadership which is missing. Bhagwant Mann should understand what responsibility he has got.

Who can provide that leadership? Do you see anyone or the BJP will come (to power in Punjab)?

That's why I said this polarisation, if it ever happens, will happen because people need a sense of security. And that only and only BJP can provide. When you juxtapose BJP's leadership in the Centre and what is happening here with these two main parties, Aam Aadmi Party and Congress.

But sir, more than half the population of Punjab, the farmers, they are unhappy with the BJP.

Yes, they are unhappy.

Because they have been protesting, there have been so many deaths, 700-plus in Delhi, 20-plus already at Shambhu border. They don't feel a sense of security with the BJP.

No, that is, there are issues. First of all, I think there are problems. Nobody is denying the issue. Farming itself is, farming is in distress, extreme distress.

You are a farmer.

I am a farmer. I can, I speak here as a farmer. But first of all, the diagnosis is wrong. And the cure that is being prescribed is not meant for the problem which farmers face. It has to be understood first, like I said, first understand Punjab before you try to decode or try to find a remedy for Punjab. First you have to understand the psyche of Punjab.

They don't even know the ethos of Punjab. The same way, what is the problem with the farmers? There is the Centre who doesn't understand farmers. I think here, Punjab, I think the Punjab government. It is first their responsibility.

And the Central Government, somehow, yes, it was their folly. They should have taken farmers on board. And it was the job of, that time, the stalwart Badal sahib should have stepped in and helped formulate the, whatever the laws, farming laws, amendment was required.

He should have formulated with the consent of the farmers. I think a better solution could have been found. There was no negotiation.

They were not involved. The stakeholders were not there. That's why the problem came.

And this hurt is still being, no, the hurt was, that time it was genuine, sir. People died there, stayed there for a year. Nobody is denying that.

That hurt is still there.

But this hurt is being exploited by certain self-appointed farm leaders. My simple question still stays today: For whom are they asking this guarantee for MSP? They are asking guarantee of MSP for 23 crops.

I have asked very humbly to the so-called farm leaders and to the opposition leaders who are also jumping on to the bandwagon, whether it is Aam Aadmi Party, whether it is Congress. I said, which crop would you substitute your paddy with? You tell me and I will get you the guarantee. Nobody is willing to.

Even now, your paper only today carried the news that 32 lakh hectares of land is going to be planted, paddy is going to be planted. I think it is more than last year. So, who are you fighting for? Whose battle Punjab is fighting? Why is a Punjabi youth, Shubhkaran, dying? For whom? Let them fight their own battle.

Let's talk about Punjab. Because Punjab is facing, this is a clear and present threat. Water level is going down… We will be left without any groundwater.

How can we ignore it? How long can we ignore it? We cannot bury our head like an ostrich. We don't see the reality. It is staring right into our face.

But we are still going on planting paddy. Let's talk about it. Let's come up with a formula.

I personally think, sorry before I finish it, the last line. Farmers need income, sir. Their income has to be assured, assured increase in income.

That has to be assured. And this is not the way to guarantee… MSP guarantee for 23 crops will not ensure increase in Punjab's farmer's income. This is what I feel.

I may be wrong, but this is my view. And I think this should be discussed across the table. Sit down with them and ask this question to them — which crop would you plant? Which crop do you want assistance for?

It's not going to happen in a day. It will, gradually. That's why I said now when this question came about here again, your paper did a very good reporting about how 16,000 megawatt is going to be the requirement (during paddy sowing season). I said this is the time.

The so-called leaders and so-called opposition leaders who were ready to jump onto the bandwagon and try to be farmers, they are well-wishers. Why aren't they showing the way? Why aren't they planting moong? Why aren't they planting something else? Bajra, which Bhagwant Manj i's advocate general in the court said that they will substitute with bajra. Why isn't Bhagwant Man ji saying anything? These are the fundamental questions.

They make it into an emotional issue. Yes, everybody holds farmers in great regard and respect. But still, these people are giving farming a bad name.

What was happening yesterday? Doesn't sound very familiar what these two leaders were saying that they are people, they are not even traders. This sounds very familiar. The same thing was earlier said at Delhi border, that they are not farmers.

They are repeating the same lines. Because they are impostors, sir. I think they are not farmers.

The farmer leaders are impostors. They are self-imposed. I think they do not have welfare of farmers in their mind.

They were here. Government came here to negotiate with them. They should look into this.

You have been advocating alliance with the Akali Dal after the parliament election. Do you see that still holds relevance, alliance with Akali Dal?

Why I was kind of supporting this… My fears have become reality. What has happened in Khadoor Sahib, what has happened in Faridkot is what is worrying me.

We are not looking at it, everybody talks about vision. I think the vision, if you look at the vision, you look into the future, this seems very gloomy and very bleak and dangerous. I will tell you, Dera Baba Nanak, you watch the byelection for Dera Baba Nanak, which is going to happen in October. I think it will take place along with Haryana's Assembly elections. What is going to happen in Barnala? And I will not be surprised if this lady officer from the airport incident (Kangana slap incident), she is put up in Gidderbaha. We are looking at a very bleak future, sir.

All because of this lack of leadership. SAD-BJP, if they come together….

No, no. Whether they have come together or not, I am of the view even today that a strong Akali Dal… And Akali Dal is not just another regional party. There are regional parties everywhere. Akali Dal is a representative political body of Akal Takht, of panth.

This is the safety wall. I am not betting for Sukhbir Badal. I am betting for the panth's political body, which is a safety wall where all these apprehensions. There are people, they don't turn radical because they have, they are radical, they are making these sounds or they have these views because they are somehow either perceived or real.

They have their own anxieties, their own apprehensions, their own fears, their own certain uncertainties, which Akali Dal could have handled in a very legitimate way and assured them that their rights are protected under this constitution of India, and in a democratic system, their rights and everything will be protected. In absence of that, the way leadership has flopped Akali Dal, I am not talking about the numbers, whether they were 13 or 1, it is the credibility of the Akhali leadership which is at stake. Even without a Member of Parliament, if there is a credible leader, I think this can solve a lot of purpose.

You mean the Akali Dal is important with Sukhbir or without Sukhbir?

Sir, I cannot comment whether there is ever, it is not even on the table. We have had parting of ways, we have contested election against each other.

It is beyond the realm, I cannot look into the future, but a strong representative, political representation of the panth is a must. A moderate, which is what Akhali's or Badal's particularly was.

To control the hardliners?

Not the hardliners.

To keep them in the mainstream. Fringe elements. Experts say there is a vacuum in Punjab.

There is a vacuum, and in that vacuum, these kind of voices have taken the centre stage. They may be a handful, they may be like you said, they are fringe elements, but it is, it is who wags whom.

The body is not wagging it.

Do you see a good future for Akali Dal now?

You cannot write anybody off. This is politics. This is politics, people who have been written off, have come back, very strong comeback. Who would have thought that a party like Aam Aadmi Party would come into being and with such a majority. Who would have foreseen such a thing? So, anything is possible provided the intent is right. You have to win the credibility, you have to win the trust of the people, whether you have it within you or not.

I think this I do not see, the kind of collection we have here. I think the basic, they are, I am sorry, I don't want to comment upon my colleagues, former colleagues, but still they are colleagues, maybe couple of them, you take it, three, four of them, which are personal grudge against me.

They can join BJP…

No, no, not, they don't have to join BJP.

So many of your former colleagues have joined.

Wherever they are, there are capable people in Congress also, sir, but then Congress is more worried about religious prominence than talking about integrity and honesty.

I will still believe that even if they had to, I don't know why they had to change Captain Amarinder Singh (remove him as Punjab CM), but if Captain Sir had to be changed, I think there were capable people, even Pragat Singh or even Navjot Singh Sidhu, at least nobody would have told them that they are corrupt. Honesty is something, people are fed up with this corrupt regime. The way the corruption is, though they say we have zero tolerance for corruption, this is totally maha-corrupt government, only corruption has become expensive today.

But they (the Congress) still got seven seats.

Now I am talking about, please don't hold me… I am not calling them corrupt. It was the same earlier, it is the same now.

They got seats, yes, but people do not change their, like how they shift their loyalties. That's why I say you cannot write anybody off. Let's talk about this famous idol today, who was the flavour of the day till recently. They even wanted to bring Moosewala's father into politics. It is the same Moosewala whom people of his constituency,,, Ge lost by 60,000, the second highest margin. And three months later, from that day on, he is still the icon of Punjab.

And somehow, Aam Aadmi Party and Congress together, they have been able to confuse people whether they are together or whether they are against each other. I think this confusion has led to the situation as it is now. And it will not last for long.

#Bhagwant Mann #BJP #Sunil Jakhar