Taliban are not terrorists, time that Russia recognises them: Zamir Kabulov

JYOTI MALHOTRA IN MOSCOW

The Tribune’s Editor-in-Chief Jyoti Malhotra spoke to Russia’s pointperson in charge of South Asia in the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Presidential envoy for Afghanistan Zamir Kabulov in Moscow on PM Modi’s forthcoming visit to Russia, on Russia’s impending removal of the Taliban from its “terror list” and more. Here is the full interview :

You know that The Tribune is one of India’s oldest newspapers. It started in 1881 in Lahore, which is now in Pakistan, and now we are located in Chandigarh. So it’s a long, long way from Chandigarh to Moscow. But we feel that relations between India and Russia are quite close, not only because Prime Minister Modi is coming to Moscow on July 8. Are you confirming that?

Yes, sure. Certainly. We are looking forward to welcoming your Prime Minister, and we believe it will be a very important meeting between two leaders.

So, what is the Prime Minister going to do here, in Moscow?

The Prime Minister will discuss with his counterpart, President Vladimir Putin, all important issues that concern the two nations. Of course, it’s going to be geopolitics, regional issues, bilateral politics, economic relations, and whatever else they decide to discuss. They have very close relations, and they are quite open to talking to each other.

But do you feel that relations are becoming a bit cold between India and Russia, or you think it’s still quite okay?

No, it’s still quite okay. We can understand that India is looking for a better way to develop in this turbulent world. But for us, it is important that while being friendly with other nations, India will not lose friendship with Russia.

Are you afraid that India may lose friendship with Russia?

I’m not afraid.

Are you concerned?

Concerned? It’s too strong a word. I’m just taking note of realities. We understand that India is getting closer to the United States. We don’t mind that it’s a legitimate right of any nation to build relations with others. But we expect and hope that it will not be done at the expense of relations with us.

Do you think it’s being done at the expense of relations with Russia?

Sometimes, I have such a feeling.

Like when? When did you last have this feeling?

Well, the position of India, for instance, when it comes to the Ukraine crisis, and the position of India towards the so-called peace summit in Switzerland. Some real friends of Russia ignored the peace, which India did not, although the level (of representation) was not high.

Well, a senior level of the Ministry of External Affairs was there.

Nevertheless, we did not talk about all that.

First of all, at the Swiss summit, India did not even send a minister. It was, like you said, an official of the Ministry of External Affairs. But what is it that you’re concerned about vis-a-vis India’s position in Ukraine?

We expect India to have a real, clear understanding of Russia’s position while this crisis emerged. That’s very much important. And everybody who understands the root of the problem will certainly agree that the right truth is on the Russian side.

Truth is on the Russian side? But surely you cannot expect India to agree that your invasion of Ukraine was justified. Why should one country invade another country?

You used a wrong term, invasion.

It’s not an “invasion”? What is it?

We are liberating Russian-speaking, traditional, historic regions of Ukraine.

But in that case, it’s been more than two years. If you were liberating these Russian-speaking regions, you should have just incorporated them into your country. You haven’t done that. You’re continuing to bomb other parts of Ukraine, too. That’s not justified, is it?

It’s more than justified. Everything is justified when it comes to the existence of Russia.

You think your existence is at stake?

Yes, of course. Because we are not fighting with the Ukrainian regime. We are fighting with the collective West, (which is) behind the Ukrainian regime.

You think your existence as a nation is at stake?

You’re right.

Why do you feel that? That’s a very big thing to say.

Well, it’s a long story. Just listen to what my President, for hours, explained to the whole world. Why are you asking me?

But why do you feel that your existence is at stake? Do you feel that the Americans are going to obliterate Russia from the face of the map?

Well, they don’t have a chance, but they are trying their best to subdue Russia, as they managed to do in the 90s, but Russia re-emerged. Russia will never subdue anybody, let alone America.

But Mr Kabulov, may I play devil’s advocate and say that actually you’re the one, who by invading Ukraine, gave the Americans the opportunity to…

No, you’re putting wrong questions, because you didn’t take time to study.

I have been studying it for more than two years.

But in vain. Your questions disclose that it was not enough.

Okay, so tell me, why do you think I am wrong and why do you think you did not give America the opportunity?

Because America is using the Ukrainian regime as a tool to destroy Russia. That’s why we started this operation to block this process. In a way, NATO is using Ukraine.

So do you feel that India does not understand what Russia is doing?

I hope that India understands.

But do you feel sometimes it may not?

Sometimes it may not, but we shall see. Your Prime Minister is coming and he will have a chance to explain it to my President.

So you are looking forward to his understanding of your position on Ukraine?

I am sure. Why do you repeat the same question? It’s the wrong way of talking to me.

Why do you think it’s the wrong way?

Because I’m not so stupid to be asked the same question several times. Please don’t repeat the same questions. I don’t have so much time.

You’re a very smart man, Mr Kabulov. Let me ask this in another way. What do you think will be discussed when Prime Minister Modi comes? One is that Ukraine is on the agenda. What else is on the agenda?

Global issues, global economy, new world order.

What does that mean?

It means that in this new world, all the nations will build healthy relations with each other, and will not try to provide its own security at the expense of others. And on that, we see India as a partner.

That sounds like both countries are talking to each other about this global world order. A newly emerging world order.

And it is very much legitimate for such big and important countries like Russia and India to do so.

So you are now in the Russian Foreign Office, in-charge of all of South Asia, the way we see it, from India’s point of view.

South and West. Because I have Iran in my portfolio.

But just to ask you, which is an aside, your last name, Kabulov, it’s a Muslim name, right? An Arabic one?

You are right, it’s a Muslim Arabic name because my father was Uzbek. He passed away. My mother is Tatar. That’s why I have a Muslim name. It sounds like the capital of Afghanistan, but nothing to do with it.

Because it’s “kabool,” right, as in “agreement”?

Yes.

Do you speak any Hindustani?

No, unfortunately.

But you speak Farsi?

I speak Farsi. But the word “kabool”, it’s Arabic.

But is it also a Farsi word?

Yes, of course. It’s used in Farsi. It’s not so often they use that family name.

So it’s a Russification, if you like, of the Arabic name or the Farsi word.

It’s not Russification. It sounds the same in Uzbek language. There is no Russification.

So, you know, that was an aside. But I want to ask you, you are the Presidential Envoy for Afghanistan. What is going on two-and-a-half years after the Taliban took Kabul on August 15, which is also India’s Independence Day by the way. What, in your assessment,  is happening in Afghanistan?

Well, Afghanistan is quite complicated… But those who now rule Afghanistan, whom we call the Taliban — I actually see them as Pashtuns — (they are) religious traditionalists are in charge of Afghanistan. They are trying to build their own society, in a way they believe is the best one for their nation.

And you think that it’s okay for them to put women down?

Look, I think that they should mind their own country. Who am I or you to lecture them on how to build their nation and society? Perhaps, those who are running Afghanistan now may dislike the ways society is managed in my country. But they never dared to lecture us and never demanded us to change it. Why should we do it?

It’s time for us to build normal relations with Taliban in order to promote bilateral relations and help them maintain regional stability.

Because you just spoke to me a couple of minutes ago about a global world order. Now, surely Afghanistan is part of that global world order.

For sure.

And I hope you believe that there are some basic human rights across the world?

Of course, I believe in it. I may dislike some things in Afghanistan, but it doesn’t give me a right to demand them to change it. I can politely express my hope that they will do it, but they have their own society and they will very rightly respond to me in my own ways.

So has there been even an informal exchange of views when you meet the senior Taliban leadership? What do you guys talk about?

We talk about business, we talk about politics, we talk about economy. In politics, we discuss what we want Taliban to do. They are already doing a lot but we want them to do more to curb international terrorism. Remaining on their soil, they are doing their best. But they have limited resources because their Western partners are trying to put pressure on them, laying sanctions and other bizarre things. They have already done a lot of things to downsize drugs.

You appreciate what they have done on the drug market?

For sure, everybody should appreciate it. It’s not only for Russia, it’s for the whole world. Second, economic bilateral relations. They need a lot of things, actually basic things, and they are interested in developing trade relations with my country. And we are ready, we are open to run business and cooperation with them.

Now, you have recommended to President Putin that the Taliban be taken off the terror list. Is that correct?

It’s very much correct.

And why have you done that?

Because the Taliban, as my President says, if you monitor what he says, is the reality, and they are running and governing a country. If Afghanistan doesn’t like them, it’s for the Afghan nation to change their rules. But I cannot see anybody changing them. So they are a reality. And there are a lot of countries in the world whose leadership we don’t like, but so what? We recognise them as a sovereign state and leadership. That’s why it’s time for us to build normal relations with Taliban in order to promote bilateral relations and help them maintain regional stability, which is very much important not only for Russia, but all regional states, including India.

Europe refused to buy Russian oil directly, now they pay additional price to India, and India makes good money. 

So are you saying that Russia is going to imminently recognise the Taliban?

It depends on my President’s decision, but logic prompts us to think so.

But certainly you believe that they are not terrorists?

They are not terrorists.

And you believe that they must be a part of the international community?

That’s for sure. They are already part of the international community.

And they should occupy a place at the United Nations?

That’s for sure. I believe it will be very legitimate for them.

So you have a Russian embassy in Kabul?

Yes, we have a very active and full-fledged embassy operational in Kabul.

You have an ambassador?

We have an ambassador.

But because of this non-recognition right now, he has not presented his credentials to the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan?

No, because he presented his credentials to the previous regime.

To the Islamic Republic?

Yes. That’s why there is no need for him to do that again.

Mr Kabulov, you have watched Afghanistan for a really long time. You were ambassador there about a decade ago. But explain to me, were you surprised when the Taliban walked into Kabul nearly three years ago?

Not at all. I was not only monitoring them but I was in touch with them when they were in opposition. And I had all kinds of contacts (with them). Let’s say, some eight years before they took over Kabul, I knew that they were coming to take over the entire Afghanistan. But we, at that time, wanted that common sense in the previous regime (of President Ashraf Ghani) will prevail, but in vain. We wanted to have a coalition government comprised of some elements of the previous regime and the Taliban. And in principle, the Taliban were ready, but President Ashraf Ghani didn’t want it. And as a result, he lost everything.

So when the Doha deal was signed between the Americans and the Taliban, you thought the game was over?

No. It was supposed to be the beginning of the game.

In what way?

I have already explained and described. We wanted it to be a starting point for building a coalition government.

So the Americans were very much part of this great game?

Yes, of course, but they failed in this game because they failed to persuade their puppet President Ashraf Ghani to come to terms, to share power.

But the Americans were very much talking to the Taliban for several years before, even before the Doha deal was signed?

Yes, of course.

Like you were. So two big powers talking to the Taliban and understanding the reality on the ground?

Yes, of course.

But then how di