Taliban are not terrorists, time that Russia recognises them: Zamir Kabulov

JYOTI MALHOTRA IN MOSCOW

The Tribune’s Editor-in-Chief Jyoti Malhotra spoke to Russia’s pointperson in charge of South Asia in the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Presidential envoy for Afghanistan Zamir Kabulov in Moscow on PM Modi’s forthcoming visit to Russia, on Russia’s impending removal of the Taliban from its “terror list” and more. Here is the full interview :

You know that The Tribune is one of India's oldest newspapers. It started in 1881 in Lahore, which is now in Pakistan, and now we are located in Chandigarh. So it’s a long, long way from Chandigarh to Moscow. But we feel that relations between India and Russia are quite close, not only because Prime Minister Modi is coming to Moscow on July 8. Are you confirming that?

Yes, sure. Certainly. We are looking forward to welcoming your Prime Minister, and we believe it will be a very important meeting between two leaders.

So, what is the Prime Minister going to do here, in Moscow?

The Prime Minister will discuss with his counterpart, President Vladimir Putin, all important issues that concern the two nations. Of course, it’s going to be geopolitics, regional issues, bilateral politics, economic relations, and whatever else they decide to discuss. They have very close relations, and they are quite open to talking to each other.

But do you feel that relations are becoming a bit cold between India and Russia, or you think it’s still quite okay?

No, it’s still quite okay. We can understand that India is looking for a better way to develop in this turbulent world. But for us, it is important that while being friendly with other nations, India will not lose friendship with Russia.

Are you afraid that India may lose friendship with Russia?

I’m not afraid.

Are you concerned?

Concerned? It’s too strong a word. I’m just taking note of realities. We understand that India is getting closer to the United States. We don’t mind that it’s a legitimate right of any nation to build relations with others. But we expect and hope that it will not be done at the expense of relations with us.

Do you think it’s being done at the expense of relations with Russia?

Sometimes, I have such a feeling.

Like when? When did you last have this feeling?

Well, the position of India, for instance, when it comes to the Ukraine crisis, and the position of India towards the so-called peace summit in Switzerland. Some real friends of Russia ignored the peace, which India did not, although the level (of representation) was not high.

Well, a senior level of the Ministry of External Affairs was there.

Nevertheless, we did not talk about all that.

First of all, at the Swiss summit, India did not even send a minister. It was, like you said, an official of the Ministry of External Affairs. But what is it that you’re concerned about vis-a-vis India’s position in Ukraine?

We expect India to have a real, clear understanding of Russia's position while this crisis emerged. That’s very much important. And everybody who understands the root of the problem will certainly agree that the right truth is on the Russian side.

Truth is on the Russian side? But surely you cannot expect India to agree that your invasion of Ukraine was justified. Why should one country invade another country?

You used a wrong term, invasion.

It’s not an “invasion"? What is it?

We are liberating Russian-speaking, traditional, historic regions of Ukraine.

But in that case, it’s been more than two years. If you were liberating these Russian-speaking regions, you should have just incorporated them into your country. You haven’t done that. You’re continuing to bomb other parts of Ukraine, too. That’s not justified, is it?

It’s more than justified. Everything is justified when it comes to the existence of Russia.

You think your existence is at stake?

Yes, of course. Because we are not fighting with the Ukrainian regime. We are fighting with the collective West, (which is) behind the Ukrainian regime.

You think your existence as a nation is at stake?

You’re right.

Why do you feel that? That’s a very big thing to say.

Well, it’s a long story. Just listen to what my President, for hours, explained to the whole world. Why are you asking me?

But why do you feel that your existence is at stake? Do you feel that the Americans are going to obliterate Russia from the face of the map?

Well, they don’t have a chance, but they are trying their best to subdue Russia, as they managed to do in the 90s, but Russia re-emerged. Russia will never subdue anybody, let alone America.

But Mr Kabulov, may I play devil’s advocate and say that actually you’re the one, who by invading Ukraine, gave the Americans the opportunity to...

No, you’re putting wrong questions, because you didn’t take time to study.

I have been studying it for more than two years.

But in vain. Your questions disclose that it was not enough.

Okay, so tell me, why do you think I am wrong and why do you think you did not give America the opportunity?

Because America is using the Ukrainian regime as a tool to destroy Russia. That’s why we started this operation to block this process. In a way, NATO is using Ukraine.

So do you feel that India does not understand what Russia is doing?

I hope that India understands.

But do you feel sometimes it may not?

Sometimes it may not, but we shall see. Your Prime Minister is coming and he will have a chance to explain it to my President.

So you are looking forward to his understanding of your position on Ukraine?

I am sure. Why do you repeat the same question? It’s the wrong way of talking to me.

Why do you think it’s the wrong way?

Because I’m not so stupid to be asked the same question several times. Please don’t repeat the same questions. I don’t have so much time.

You’re a very smart man, Mr Kabulov. Let me ask this in another way. What do you think will be discussed when Prime Minister Modi comes? One is that Ukraine is on the agenda. What else is on the agenda?

Global issues, global economy, new world order.

What does that mean?

It means that in this new world, all the nations will build healthy relations with each other, and will not try to provide its own security at the expense of others. And on that, we see India as a partner.

That sounds like both countries are talking to each other about this global world order. A newly emerging world order.

And it is very much legitimate for such big and important countries like Russia and India to do so.

So you are now in the Russian Foreign Office, in-charge of all of South Asia, the way we see it, from India’s point of view.

South and West. Because I have Iran in my portfolio.

But just to ask you, which is an aside, your last name, Kabulov, it's a Muslim name, right? An Arabic one?

You are right, it’s a Muslim Arabic name because my father was Uzbek. He passed away. My mother is Tatar. That’s why I have a Muslim name. It sounds like the capital of Afghanistan, but nothing to do with it.

Because it’s “kabool,” right, as in “agreement"?

Yes.

Do you speak any Hindustani?

No, unfortunately.

But you speak Farsi?

I speak Farsi. But the word “kabool", it’s Arabic.

But is it also a Farsi word?

Yes, of course. It’s used in Farsi. It’s not so often they use that family name.

So it’s a Russification, if you like, of the Arabic name or the Farsi word.

It’s not Russification. It sounds the same in Uzbek language. There is no Russification.

So, you know, that was an aside. But I want to ask you, you are the Presidential Envoy for Afghanistan. What is going on two-and-a-half years after the Taliban took Kabul on August 15, which is also India’s Independence Day by the way. What, in your assessment,  is happening in Afghanistan?

Well, Afghanistan is quite complicated... But those who now rule Afghanistan, whom we call the Taliban — I actually see them as Pashtuns — (they are) religious traditionalists are in charge of Afghanistan. They are trying to build their own society, in a way they believe is the best one for their nation.

And you think that it’s okay for them to put women down?

Look, I think that they should mind their own country. Who am I or you to lecture them on how to build their nation and society? Perhaps, those who are running Afghanistan now may dislike the ways society is managed in my country. But they never dared to lecture us and never demanded us to change it. Why should we do it?

It’s time for us to build normal relations with Taliban in order to promote bilateral relations and help them maintain regional stability.

Because you just spoke to me a couple of minutes ago about a global world order. Now, surely Afghanistan is part of that global world order.

For sure.

And I hope you believe that there are some basic human rights across the world?

Of course, I believe in it. I may dislike some things in Afghanistan, but it doesn’t give me a right to demand them to change it. I can politely express my hope that they will do it, but they have their own society and they will very rightly respond to me in my own ways.

So has there been even an informal exchange of views when you meet the senior Taliban leadership? What do you guys talk about?

We talk about business, we talk about politics, we talk about economy. In politics, we discuss what we want Taliban to do. They are already doing a lot but we want them to do more to curb international terrorism. Remaining on their soil, they are doing their best. But they have limited resources because their Western partners are trying to put pressure on them, laying sanctions and other bizarre things. They have already done a lot of things to downsize drugs.

You appreciate what they have done on the drug market?

For sure, everybody should appreciate it. It’s not only for Russia, it’s for the whole world. Second, economic bilateral relations. They need a lot of things, actually basic things, and they are interested in developing trade relations with my country. And we are ready, we are open to run business and cooperation with them.

Now, you have recommended to President Putin that the Taliban be taken off the terror list. Is that correct?

It’s very much correct.

And why have you done that?

Because the Taliban, as my President says, if you monitor what he says, is the reality, and they are running and governing a country. If Afghanistan doesn’t like them, it’s for the Afghan nation to change their rules. But I cannot see anybody changing them. So they are a reality. And there are a lot of countries in the world whose leadership we don’t like, but so what? We recognise them as a sovereign state and leadership. That’s why it’s time for us to build normal relations with Taliban in order to promote bilateral relations and help them maintain regional stability, which is very much important not only for Russia, but all regional states, including India.

Europe refused to buy Russian oil directly, now they pay additional price to India, and India makes good money. 

So are you saying that Russia is going to imminently recognise the Taliban?

It depends on my President’s decision, but logic prompts us to think so.

But certainly you believe that they are not terrorists?

They are not terrorists.

And you believe that they must be a part of the international community?

That’s for sure. They are already part of the international community.

And they should occupy a place at the United Nations?

That’s for sure. I believe it will be very legitimate for them.

So you have a Russian embassy in Kabul?

Yes, we have a very active and full-fledged embassy operational in Kabul.

You have an ambassador?

We have an ambassador.

But because of this non-recognition right now, he has not presented his credentials to the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan?

No, because he presented his credentials to the previous regime.

To the Islamic Republic?

Yes. That’s why there is no need for him to do that again.

Mr Kabulov, you have watched Afghanistan for a really long time. You were ambassador there about a decade ago. But explain to me, were you surprised when the Taliban walked into Kabul nearly three years ago?

Not at all. I was not only monitoring them but I was in touch with them when they were in opposition. And I had all kinds of contacts (with them). Let’s say, some eight years before they took over Kabul, I knew that they were coming to take over the entire Afghanistan. But we, at that time, wanted that common sense in the previous regime (of President Ashraf Ghani) will prevail, but in vain. We wanted to have a coalition government comprised of some elements of the previous regime and the Taliban. And in principle, the Taliban were ready, but President Ashraf Ghani didn’t want it. And as a result, he lost everything.

So when the Doha deal was signed between the Americans and the Taliban, you thought the game was over?

No. It was supposed to be the beginning of the game.

In what way?

I have already explained and described. We wanted it to be a starting point for building a coalition government.

So the Americans were very much part of this great game?

Yes, of course, but they failed in this game because they failed to persuade their puppet President Ashraf Ghani to come to terms, to share power.

But the Americans were very much talking to the Taliban for several years before, even before the Doha deal was signed?

Yes, of course.

Like you were. So two big powers talking to the Taliban and understanding the reality on the ground?

Yes, of course.

But then how did it not happen? I mean, Ashraf Ghani was a puppet, like you said.

Because the American administration failed to put enough pressure on the previous government, on Ghani, to come to terms...

And how do you see the Pakistanis play the role that they play?

Pakistanis were very much supporters and cooperated with us and the Americans, in order to pave (the) way for such understanding and compromise to build, as we call, the reconciliation process.

But the Pakistanis were helping the Americans and the Pakistanis were helping the Russians.

Pakistanis were helping themselves, first of all.

To assert their own place in this great game?

Yes, of course, and they have very much legitimate right to do that. They needed a neighbour with very deep and old relations. And in some parts of Pakistan, Pashto is spoken. So there is a lot of legitimacy in their approach.

You remember, just after the takeover of Kabul by the Taliban, Faiz Hamid, the then Director-General of ISI, was in Kabul at Serena Hotel, holding a cup of tea in his hand. You think that blew the cover of the ISI involvement in Afghanistan?

No, I don’t think so. Everybody knows, let alone you, that ISI plays a very important role in Pakistan’s Afghan politics. So that’s why it was quite natural for the chief of ISI to be in Kabul and talk to the new leadership.

A lot of Afghan nationalists, a lot of patriots, do not like the role that the Pakistanis play in Afghanistan.

Unfortunately, yes, there were difficult times in relations between Pakistan and Afghanistan, but not only during this period. From the outset of the emergence of Pakistan, Afghanistan was against Pakistan to become a member of the UN. So it’s a very complicated history. It’s unfortunate. We believe that Afghanistan and Pakistan should build healthy, normal relations, and try to better understand each other, support, and not create problems for each other. It’s what we call original stability, which is very much important.

So two-and-a-half, nearly three years later, Mr Kabulov, it seems as if the Afghans, the Taliban, are very critical of what the Pakistanis are doing. You know, you have these daily incidents across the (Af-Pak) border, a lot of firing, the Pakistanis are accusing the Taliban of carrying out attacks.

I’m looking at your point, but there is a reason. The Pakistani government is concerned about the so-called Pakistani-Taliban movement, as they believe, based inside Afghanistan. To my knowledge, they are, of course, Pakistani citizens, and predominantly of Pashtun origin. For that reason, perhaps for Afghans, it is quite awkward not to host these people. It’s Afghan tradition of hospitality, specifically for four tribes, let me put it this way. But since this movement endangers Pakistan’s security and stability, it is a point for them to engage in a clash, and bring tension in relation with Islamabad and Kabul. We hope they will settle. And recent reports indicate that the government of Afghanistan decided to relocate these guys to somewhere else, far away from Pakistan border. It is a positive step, we support it. They should find their own bilateral way of defusing tension.

And where do you see India’s position in all this?

You should know better about India’s position. India is interested, to my understanding, in stabilising the region. India is interested in having good relations with Afghanistan. India invested quite a lot in the development of Afghanistan. And we hope that India will continue to (build) Afghan policy in that manner. It will contribute to our common endeavour and efforts of our common regional stability. It is a part of our common regional hope.

But when you say this, Mr Kabulov, with the Afghans and Pakistanis, you feel that they should come to some sort of an understanding for regional stability. You hope that India will be part of this. So when you came to Delhi for talks only a month or so ago, you talked about this, I’m sure. What response did you get?

Response was very positive. I found my colleagues to be very positive. They wanted to closely cooperate. They have a good understanding. Many things will coincide when it comes to ways of helping Afghanistan to be stabilised. And they understand that the Taliban government is a reality of Afghanistan, and India, like Russia, should build on these normal relations. Of course, maybe the pace of this process will be different when it comes to Moscow, India, or other regional capitals. But everybody in the region understands that it is time to normalise relations with the new government of Afghanistan.

But what about people like Hamid Karzai, the former president? He is in Kabul, under so-called house arrest. He has been out of the country a couple of times. And so has Dr Abdullah Abdullah. He comes to Delhi a lot, as you know. But what happens to people like these? In this imminent normalcy, what role can they play?

Nothing will happen to them. They are living, of course, out of politics of Afghanistan. But they have (their) background. Some of them have a good reputation among Afghans. But it is not my business to decide what kind of role they should play. But they are patriots of their own country. They have a capacity to help their nation to find the best way of building life.

The Afghan diaspora, for example, which is all over the world, and all patriots at heart would love to go back to Kabul, but they are afraid of how they will be received by the Taliban. Do you talk about these issues as well with the Taliban?

Frankly speaking, no. It was not the case for us. But to my knowledge some Afghans who left Afghanistan after the Taliban invasion of Kabul, they started to return, and Taliban treated them quite fairly. Of course, not everybody can do it. Some of them who were too much subservient to the American and NATO occupation, they may have problems for their previous misdeeds. But the majority of Afghans can come back. I don’t think that they are scared of any persecution. I think the problem for them is the economy. They are afraid that they cannot find a job inside Afghanistan. That’s why they prefer to stay outside where they have some sort of livelihood for themselves and their family.

Russia won't become a junior or senior partner to anybody. For me, much more important that India won’t become a junior partner of US.

So now the Americans are another big power. You also would acknowledge that they very much, like you, understand the reality on the ground. Do they understand?

I hope so. Sometimes, I doubt that they understand properly the reality. Like I used to say, American colleagues like to make history than study it.

But they fled Kabul. They didn’t learn from your fleeing of Kabul.

Well, when we were in good terms with them, I spent a lot of time and words to explain to them that they are doing many things wrong, imposing their vision of state-building society on Afghans

Which is what you tried to do too...

Yes, that’s why. But we learnt our lesson. So that’s the difference between us and Americans.

But the American embassy in Kabul is as it is. The Taliban haven’t touched it.

Yes, of course. For the moment, yes.

So the Taliban, I’m sure, would like to also re-establish relations with the Americans.

Why not? Perhaps, if Americans are ready to fairly do it on equal footing with the Taliban. If they want to dictate, I don’t think that they will succeed.

But there is already some sort of conversation, I’m sure, ongoing?

I heard, yes.

Behind the scenes, behind the “purdah”?

Why should it be behind “purdah”? I cannot understand. They can do it quite openly. There is nothing to be ashamed of.

For 10 years, you were in Afghanistan, from 1979 to 1989. The Red Army, with a lot of honour, you went to rebuild Afghanistan in your own vision. Even before, when you had the Soviet advisers. And the same Taliban defeated the Red Army.

The Red Army was defeated, but not by the same Taliban. The Red Army was defeated by the Soviet Union in Russia.

But one of the manifestations of that was the fact that you went to Afghanistan, and I am not going to use the word “invasion", or whatever it was called...

Very well. But we never wanted to stay in Afghanistan forever. (We) spent (our) time and left.

Mr Kabulov, you are a man of history. You know that the Soviets were defeated by the Afghans, or by the Taliban, at the time.

No, the Soviets were not defeated by the Taliban, simply because the Taliban did not exist at that time.

Not this Taliban, but their predecessors.

The previous Taliban also were not existent because they emerged in 1994 only.

I do want to ask you the Najibullah question. When Najib was in the UN compound, in Kabul, and he was going to be evacuated and brought to Delhi, it all fell apart. Do you remember that?  What happened?

I remember, of course. Well, it’s well-known history. He was taken by the Taliban to the palace and he was killed there. But two of his lieutenants, one of them his chief bodyguard and his secretary, they managed to escape from the location and reach Islamabad. At that time, I was part of the UN special mission to Afghanistan. In that capacity, I accompanied them to Delhi from Islamabad.

Well, the history is taking many circles, Mr Kabulov. But my question, when Prime Minister Modi comes to Moscow, will there be any agreements on the agenda?

Not at the moment. We are working on some drafts, let’s say roadmap of cooperation between the two countries. Two teams are still working on the draft. I personally very much hope that they manage to finalise the job. If they do, it will be, not an agreement but a roadmap.

What will you talk about?

It is a vision of development of our cooperation in the coming decade or so.

How would you describe it? We talk about weapons all the time. We talk about oil. In the last couple of years, India has been buying a lot of oil from Russia. You have become our largest source of oil import.

India has become the largest exporter of oil and made refined products.

That’s war economy, right?

It is a very interesting and curious thing...

India is importing Russian oil, refining it and re-exporting it to Europe as Europe cannot buy Russian oil directly because of the war situation. 

Yes, and those who refuse to buy Russian oil directly, they pay additional price to India, and India makes good money. Lucky you are !

That’s a very good point Mr Kabulov ! And that means that the bilateral trade between India and Russia has only grown.

Yes, of course. It is closing to $70 billion, and just two years ago, it was around $10 billion.

But a very artificial number, isn’t it, if it is so hugely dependent on oil?

Well, you see it is as artificial, but in reality it is the real economy. Oil has a price in the world and significance in the global economy.

And you feel that this vision document will hopefully have an impact?

It is much more broad. It is not only about arms or about oil. It is about industrial and scientific aspects.

But I cannot let you go, Mr Kabulov, without asking you the China question. China and Russia are good partners?

Excellent partners.

There is a lot of criticism that Russia is becoming a junior partner of China.

Russia is not going to become a junior or senior partner to anybody. For me, it is much more important that India won’t become a junior partner of the United States.

I don’t think India is becoming a junior partner of anybody.

I like your optimism.

It is the reality on the ground. You said we should recognise the reality on the ground. I am not speaking for the Indian government; I am just a journalist.

Even I am not speaking for the Indian government but it was you who put this (question) and you got the answer you deserve.

I am not sure about what I deserve, Mr Kabulov, but let me ask you. India has a lot of Russian weapons in its armed forces. Now, on the Line of Actual Control (LAC), which is the informal border between India and China, there are Chinese troops sitting. Yes? Why do you think the Chinese troops are there? What are they doing there?

Why do you ask me?

Because you are a Russian analyst.

I am not even covering China. Your government has its own answer. The Chinese government has its own. We have good relations with both you and China, and our dream is to see Beijing and Delhi have excellent relations like they have with Moscow.

And at the BRIC Summit in Kazan in October, Chinese President Xi Jinping will be there?

I hope so.

And Prime Minister Modi, hopefully, will also be there. We don’t know yet. So you think they should talk to each other?

They of course should talk. Two great nations leaders should talk to each other and their neighbours.

Indians are fighting in the Russian army in Ukraine. A young man from Amritsar in Punjab, by the name of Tejpal Singh, only 30 years old, was killed in Zaporizhzhia. Why are the Indians here?

You should ask your own citizens and compatriots this question. They were not forcibly drafted into the Russian army. They voluntarily signed a contract just to make money serving in Russian armed service. We have less than 200 Indian citizens, I heard, who signed a contract. Some of them were killed in the battle. It is not the decision of the Russian government. They voluntarily did it.

And you are open to foreign nationals joining the Russian army?

You better put forth this question to the Minister of Defence because it is not the Minister of Foreign Affairs doing this job.

Mr Kabulov, you have been very frank and answered all my questions. I do thank you for your time.

Thank you very much. It is my custom to be frank with friendly journalists.

I am not so sure how friendly I am but I am doing my job, and we hope that you will come to Delhi and to Chandigarh where the Tribune is located.

Thank you very much. Inshallah! as my Taliban colleagues used to say.

And as we say in Hindustan, Inshallah!

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