INDIA bloc right in standing with Arvind Kejriwal on Swati Maliwal issue: Shashi Tharoor

The Tribune Interview: Shashi Tharoor, Congress leader and former Union Minister

Congress leader and former Union Minister Shashi Tharoor has said that this election is about the wellbeing of all Indians as the BJP-led government has failed in materially changing the living conditions of common people. In an interview with Aditi Tandon, he talked on a range of issues — from reservation to Constitution to Hindu-Muslim rhetoric — and said there are concerns among the people about the future of democracy and the constitution. Tharoor claimed that even if the BJP emerges as the single-largest party, it would not be able to cobble up a majority — which the INDIA parties would to form a government. He also said the INDIA bloc was right in supporting Arvind Kejriwal on the Swati Maliwal assault case issue. Excerpts:

Both the Congress and BJP say this election is about saving democracy. Your take?

This election is principally about the wellbeing of the Indian people. The government would talk about anything but the fact is that we are facing record unemployment, 45% young people aged 19 to 25 have no jobs, 80% Indians say their incomes declined in the last 10 years. Where is the government materially changing the living conditions of the aam aadmi? They have failed.

But right now, Hindu-Muslim and quota are dominating the poll narrative rather than the issues you raised.

That’s at the top level. The PM is raising this Hindu-Muslim issue, which frankly was unworthy of the PM because he is still the Prime Minister of all Indians, including the 200 million Muslims. But when we campaign at the retail level rather than the macro level, this (basic issues) is the message going out. There certainly are worries about the future of democracy, the Constitution. The BJP has given rise to these fears with talks of 400 seats in order to amend the Constitution.

We are definitely expecting that the INDIA bloc will collectively have more seats than the NDA. Even if the BJP emerges as the single largest party and gets the first chance to stake claim, they will not be able to get enough allies and by that time INDIA bloc will have come together with its numbers.

There certainly are worries about the future of democracy, the Constitution. The BJP has given rise to these fears with talks of 400 seats in order to amend the Constitution.

Why do you say the BJP wants 400 seats to change the Constitution?

When four BJP Lok Sabha candidates, including Jyoti Mirdha and Anant Hegde, say we need 400 to change the Constitution, we have to take them at their word. In most cases you amend the Constitution with consensus in consultation with other parties, as the Congress did. You only need 400 when you want to impose a change, which the rest of the parties will resist… if you want to do something completely unpopular, whether it is about abolishing the reservations or declaring India a Hindu Rashtra, something most parties will not agree to. That’s when you need 400.

You think Hindu Rashtra is on BJP’s agenda?

Who knows? After 2019 they suddenly came out with a series of anti-Muslim laws. They had triple talaq criminalisation, UAPA amendments where they could declare anyone a suspected terrorist. They had Article 370 abrogated in Kashmir and then CAA. And all this happened in 2019 immediately after elections. So who knows what other surprises they may have in store if they win in 2024! That is why we want to stop them.

The PM says he is against Congress’ appeasement politics, not against Muslims. We are only talking about social justice. There is no specific reference to any other religious group in our manifesto as the BJP would like you to believe.

Who do you seek to cover by raising 50% reservation cap?

As member of the Congress manifesto committee, I can say all that was said is — if necessary we would do that (raise the cap). First you have a caste census, find out what percentage you are talking about. Right now we give benefits and we withhold benefits on the basis of caste but we have no accurate census to show us how many people are in what caste.

What about remarks like vote jihad, X-ray by your leaders?

The woman who made that comment has explained that jihad in Urdu merely means struggle and she had no intention of conveying anything about a holy war. The funny thing is that the government is only interested in these distractions. An X-ray only shows you what is inside your body. All Rahul Gandhi is saying let us see what is there in society, what are the actual numbers. The real lives of people are not affected by a particular metaphor that a political leader may use. They are affected by the persistence of unemployment, inflation, declining incomes and increasing prices.

How many seats will Congress win?

We are definitely expecting that the INDIA bloc will collectively have more than the NDA. Even if the BJP emerges as the largest single party and get the first chance to stake claim, they will not be able to get enough allies, and by that time INDIA bloc will have come together with its numbers. I am convinced that we will be able to give the President 272 signatures.

You are hinting at a 2004-like situation?

Absolutely. This election reminds me more and more of 2004.

Why are you and INDIA allies silent on the assault on Swati Maliwal?

As far as the INDIA alliance in Delhi is concerned, the Aam Aadmi Party has spoken for themselves and for us and they know the situation better, the lady was their appointee. They know her qualities for good or for ill. And there is no reason for, us who know less than they do, to augment what they have said. Secondly, we also see this as part of the larger distraction game that the BJP specialises in playing. Once again what may or may not have happened to one individual lady is far less important than what may or may not happen to millions of people living in Delhi whose wellbeing is at stake.

You are saying the INDIA bloc is doing the right thing by standing with Kejriwal in this matter?

Absolutely. No doubt about it.

You want a probe into former top Mumbai cop Hemant Karkare’s death?

Yes, because the Leader of Opposition in the Maharashtra Assembly made the specific claim and it was anchored in a statement by a reputed police official, who wrote a book saying this. I said it would be useful to know the truth. I am not in any way, as has been wrongly caricatured, excusing Kasab.

Why is Congress contesting a historic low of 328 LS seats?

It is a reflection of the fact that we recognise that this ought to be a coalition effort. This is not the Congress versus BJP alone. This is INDIA alliance versus the BJP. And when I say INDIA alliance, I am also conscious that it does not always hold up in every state. In Delhi, AAP is our ally, in Punjab they are not. In Kerala, CPM is not our ally, in Tamil Nadu they are.

Are these contradictions alright?

That’s alright because each of the states has its own political character and, dare I say, its own political history since Independence. For us to act as though that does not matter is naive.

AK Antony panel had flagged the Congress’ pro-Muslim image for the 2019 loss. Have things changed?

That report was never released. All we have is hearsay accounts. They also keep pointing to Dr Manmohan Singh’s 2006 speech, which he clarified at that time, and they keep forgetting that he ruled for eight years thereafter. He never did anything they claim.

How would you describe PM Modi and Rahul?

There is a difference between a leader who has run a parliamentary system presidentially and a leader who is prepared to lead collegially and collectively.